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Black Women – Devil’s Advocate: Are Black People Doomed?

Posted on | September 30, 2010 | 80 Comments

It’s the last day of September, Devil’s Advocate* month. It’s round up time. :D

Before I begin, I have to highlight these fantastic blogs for their incisive commentary:

They all provide awesome analysis into the current state of the “black community”. The beauty of these blog posts is that they are complementary, logically flow together, and it can’t get better than that.

Follow The Trail Before It Goes Cold

What’s happening? Perhaps you’ve been reading some of these blogs mentioned above and others. You’ve been thinking: What are these women talking about? What are they trying to get at? They’re obsessed with empowering black women and girls by knocking the “brothers” down, harshly criticizing black people, abandoning the “black community” (by moving to low crime neighborhoods), and heading off to Europe, the West Coast or around the world, to find a white man (or non-black) to marry.

Apparently, the last straw for some people antagonistically familiar with some of these blogs was the No Wedding No Womb (NWNW) campaign. However, not all of the BWE / IR blogs were involved. Why? While it may seem to be a part of the logical outgrowth of these blogs, in some fashion NWNW is the antithesis of the general message.

Please note, I support NWNW, yet it also points in a direction that doesn’t fit within the contextual theme of the BWE / IR blogs.

No Wedding No Womb: The Blacklash

There’s been an interesting reaction to the No Wedding No Womb (NWNW) campaign. A lot of people saw a scarlet letter tattooed to their foreheads, and it stopped them from thinking. They lashed out at the spearhead of the campaign. The first and most consistent (and let’s be real, the only one they cared about) criticism: she’s married to a white man.

That’s right, her white husband meant that the general purpose of NWNW was suspect, illegitimate, ill conceived, and problematic, because it did NOT do the following:

  1. support “black love”,
  2. encourage “good brothas” to marry black women,
  3. deify black men,
  4. hold black males responsible,
  5. uplift the black family,
  6. use a less “judgmental” campaign phrase,
  7. blame white people,
  8. promise to fight patriarchy,
  9. hail the superiority of “non-traditional” families,
  10. recognize the incredible benefits of fatherless black children,
  11. request increases in government funding,
  12. support a woman’s right to be sexually adventurous / promiscuous,
  13. realize that the real reason the OOW rate is so high, is the fault of married black women.

You got that right: married black women aren’t doing their part, so the slack is being taken up by unmarried black women. It’s not quality of black people that counts, it’s the quantity. Folks need to keep the population high, quality of life for black women and girls notwithstanding. So there’s actually nothing wrong. Everything’s fine. Move along people. Stop gawking.

Are Black People Doomed?

Katrina was a fast example of black decline and government indifference at all levels. There are other examples that abound as well. In August 2010, a majority black crowd lined up to be put on a waiting list for section-8 housing in the Atlanta area. The number of units available came to less than 700. Crowds estimated at 30,000 to 50,000 (likely 97% black women and children) showed up. This is because the government is getting out of the public housing business. The number of available units is shrinking.

Hey folks, everything really is fine and dandy, please ignore the high rates of school dropouts, unemployment, incarceration rates, rates of death for young black women from AIDS, homicide rates, children born out of wedlock (OOW), black children in foster care, and the attrition of “good” jobs, etc.

I Like My Kool Aid Purple

In case it’s not apparent, I’ll spell it out:

Will black people see increased government funding? Not gonna happen. We’ve got wars to fight. Monies for social programs are being cut, and it’ll continue.

Is keeping the population high part of our strength? Doesn’t matter. Latinos already outnumber black people. Asians eventually will too. Plus Asians value higher education, strong family units, and possess incredible financial resources. Both groups marry whites in high numbers.

Are we politically relevant? Nope. Don’t be fooled by the current presence in the White House. When a member (Shirley Sherrod) of the group giving the highest percentage of votes can get tossed without a pause – the message is clear – black women have no political clout. That’s because we never use it, we give it away with no bargaining power.

Are there enough “good brothers” a.k.a purple unicorns around? He left the hood over forty years ago. Each generation leaves at the first peak of dawn. When they make good (career, financially and socially) they marry a non-black woman. Nearly a quarter (20% plus) of all eligible black men (you know, the “good brothers”) are married to a non-black woman.

White people have the same problems too, we just lead the trend. And the price of tea in China is what? Before the 1960’s, there used to be more white people in jail than black people. They were the face of crime. Don’t count on them following us off the cliff. They believe in course correction.

The government will solve our problems, or white people will save us. I know it hasn’t been stated blatantly in that fashion, but I realize a number of people seem to believe this. They’ve tried (see Affirmative Action and the War on Poverty). They’re done (see Ronald Reagan, Tea Party). The guilt is gone (see current White House resident). They put their children first, as always. They’ve got their own worries about family, friends, and foes. The economy, wars, environment, endangered animals, landing on Mars, and so on has their attention.

Should We Really Care?

Nope. There will always be a tiny top tier that survives and thrives. This sliver of population doesn’t appear on television. They aren’t entertainers, sports athletes, or media appointed leaders. They stay out of the lime light. They’ve planned for the quality of life for their children. They’ve leaving a valuable legacy for their progeny. They have their eye on the ball. They aren’t worried about the masses.

Neither should we.

One of the critical goals of the BWE /IR blogs is recommending how to increase quality of life for black women and girls. Criticism serves to help you see the forest for the trees. Like all advice – you take what works and leaves the rest.

There is no “black community” to save. It is all individual effort, and it is also determined by the company you keep. Choose your friends and advisers wisely. If they are not enriching your spirit, your mind, body and finances. Run, do not walk, away.

Last Thoughts on This (For Now)

Based on the feedback from twitter and blogs against NWNW, I’d say that some very vocal black people are unconcerned about their own general well being, and that of other black people. So why should anyone else be?

However, there are self-sufficient people who could do with some assistance. There are motivated black women and girls who are interested in moving out and up. They are the ones we care about.

As for those who believe they have to be persuaded to care about themselves – remember this proverb: You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.

**UPDATE**

From the woman who started the ball rolling with BWE / IR blogs in general. I salute you, Halima. Thank you for this comment:

Thanks for this GoldenAh

and for the record I support NWNW. And yes you have rightly pointed out that there is a certain disconnect with BWIR which leans towards bw doing their thing independent of bm (because we feel as things stand, struggling to make it work with bm and bw is of no use and wont work), but the angle i come in on is that bw should be protected and supported in child bearing so yes it links to the wider sense of NWNW (indeed NWNW has never stated it is only about bw and bm though i know for a fact that this is the underlying context within which oow is being considered).

What the whole storm around NWNW has shown me…there are some strong gatekeepers of black dysfunction and destruction, folks happy to let the situation continue to deteriorate while they have intellectual debates about the right way to do ‘activism’ that is if there is need for it to start with!

One could say that poverty has become an integral part of blackness and of the ‘culture’ of black people and thus some folks are fighting tooth and nail to ensure that this culture continues because it is authentic for blackness, indeed rather than look for ways to get bw to lift up and out, they argue for a continuation of the dynamics that keep black people/women authentically black i.e. in poverty.

some feel that because they have signed up to ‘progressive’ principles, they have no choice but to support bw’s activities that mire them in poverty, indeed they have to support bw self limiting choices out of their devotion and dedication to feminist perspectives like ‘not slut shaming’.

I can only think of how Jesus said to the Pharisees that ‘The Sabbath was made for man not the man for the Sabbath’, when they insisted in ‘sticking’ to the letter of the law than grant freedom to the person under its yoke, and so as i have said before, any feminism that doesn’t address bw needs and situation is not one bw should be too concerned about!

remember that black people are always the forerunners in terms of negative trends, so we are now ‘leading’ in what could well soon become a  mainstream debate; ‘do people have a right to be left to wilfully chart a ‘self destruct’ course’.

it is important that each young bw know that there are two factions out for their souls. those who want them to continue to be free to make the choices that lead them into permanent underclass status because as you know, ‘it is a personal freewill choice‘, and then there are others who are fighting for them to survive and we are not content to just say, ‘well it was their choice’. we are the latter, who are not too attached to any ‘ideology’ to be happy to let our daughters and girl-children go to hell in a hand basket.


*According to Wikipedia, Devil’s Advocate is:

In common parlance, a devil’s advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil’s advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position.
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80 Responses to “Black Women – Devil’s Advocate: Are Black People Doomed?”

  1. Bellydancer
    September 30th, 2010 @ 11:54 AM

    Golden ah said:
    13.realize that the real reason the OOW rate is so high, is the fault of married black women.
    You got that right: married black women aren’t doing their part, so the slack is being taken up by unmarried black women. It’s not quality of black people that counts, it’s the quantity. Folks need to keep the population high, quality of life for black women and girls notwithstanding. So there’s actually nothing wrong. Everything’s fine. Move along people. Stop gawking.

    I am glad you pointed that out came across this the other day.
    See old article here where this idiot places the blame on the high oow rate on the fact that married bw do not make as many kids as unmarried bw SMDH

    http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2009/02/the-math-on-black-out-of-wedlock-births/6738/

    GoldenAh: Oh, yeah, I saw that. I used to read his stuff, until I realized he is a few fries short of a happy meal. :D

    He’s not alone. That is the general consensus thinking right there: keep the numbers high, by any means necessary. Yet no one is asking, who will educate, nurture, feed, clothe, and house them?

  2. Bellydancer
    September 30th, 2010 @ 12:56 PM

    Other anti NWNW bloggers were quotin and totin his words like they were manna from heaven. Sure blame women who are doing the correct thing on what’s wrong with the bc today.
    If a married bw did decide not to have kids or to limit her family that is her decision.
    When you get free housing, free health care, foodstamps, wic and other programs to help you, you don’t worry about how to care for your family when you have to pay for all that ish then you start thinking about it.
    Don’t worry soon enough these others will be thinking about it too.
    We got girls here too lazy to use their WIC vouchers they will not get up and go to the store and spend them even if it is just milk, eggs, butter and cheese still that is a whole lot of meals missed. Years ago a lady we knew used to use her excess supplies to make cakes for people for a little bit of extra money so it would not go bad. Anything but you not going to get the free food SMDH some of these bitches have gotten too entitled.
    Section 8 has been cutting back for awhile now, people are tired of people tearing up their property.

  3. Faith
    September 30th, 2010 @ 6:25 PM

    Thank you for the links!

    So I was a bit thrown off when you mentioned not all of the BWE bloggers participating. I don’t think it was from lack of support but being focused on their own forums.

    GoldenAh: True. I agree.

    From what I’ve read on Twitter in particular there are quite a few BW who are married opposing NWNW which still makes NO SENSE TO ME.

    I also had someone who follows me pretend to want to participate but she wanted to fight with Christelyn instead. That one still has me shaking my head as she reads my blog and has thanked me for trying to elevate BW for months. It was incredibly dishonest of her.

    The reaction from the opponents of NWNW has been nothing less than stunning in that they have unleashed their bile so publicly and so loudly. They really fail to understand how foolish they look!!

    I’ve also noticed the non-blacks jumping into the fray to fan the flames of dysfunction by instigating the naysayers. Who do they think they’re fooling?

    GoldenAh: They want us to be on the bottom. That is “othering” at its finest.

    I’ve seen my share of Internet Ike/Ikette behavior but this is one for the record books. This is also a great opportunity for us to raise awareness.

    You covered all of the angles beautifully! Great post.

    GoldenAh: Hello Faith, thanks for the feedback. :D

    I was wondering if that area of my post would be interpreted that way. I agree, the overall message would be something I believe would be supported by the others. I didn’t mean that they had to join in. :D

    I give Christelyn credit. Big props to her. I don’t have that kind of patience for the twitter madness. However, as noted, a lot of people showed out themselves. Hmmm. :)

  4. Amanda
    September 30th, 2010 @ 6:36 PM

    Anything but you not going to get the free food SMDH some of these bitches have gotten too entitled.
    Section 8 has been cutting back for awhile now, people are tired of people tearing up their property.

    Oh It’s going to get bad. I’ve seen many home owners who have their homes under sec 8 trying to find out if they can get out of it and how. Many got so tired of having to either kick folks out or the mess they leave the homes in. Yes people who are renting do this as well, but many sec 8 homes etc. are so toe (and I yes I said toe.lo) up it’s ridiculous. Not only that, but new buyers of sec 8 homes are buying these homes to sell.

    It’s not surprising that there are NWNW complainers. Like I said before look at movies like Hitch etc. bp complained because the woman was hispanic. Producers didn’t choose a black woman cause bp would have complained about that. BP complained about the The Moynihan Report stating it was racist. But if the same white person had acted like none of the problems within the bc didn’t exist; folks would be complaining about that.

    GoldenAh: With so many houses going into foreclosure, and in some urban areas the most affected are single black women (with children). While I don’t believe people should go through these kinds of extremes, I suspect that the requirements for obtaining housing will become more severe. There will be records kept as to who’s destroying people’s properties (I think there’s a landlord database available now), and it will get tougher.

    Oh, I’m writing about stuff like that next month: Hitch, Eureka, The Event, etc. That’ll be fun. This “serious stuff” is a bit exhausting. :D

  5. Amanda
    September 30th, 2010 @ 6:38 PM

    Yeah I missed the boat for signing up, but I am supporting it. I just haven’t done a post yet as I’ve been dealing with school. I’m working on a post. But yeah it’s sad isn’t it.

    GoldenAh: If you get to accomplish your goal of producing content that counters the anti-BW nonsense, you will be making a difference. :D

  6. Lisa
    September 30th, 2010 @ 6:59 PM

    That writer for the Atlantic has written about the fact that he and his longtime partner have no plans to marry, despite having a child together. He said she doesn’t believe in marriage and he’s cool with that.

    Now… at least they are in a committed relationship and he is an involved father, but it’s rather funny how much he mentions their respective objections to marriage and then writes articles constantly questioning folks who speak out against OOW parenting.

    His father was a rolling stone… he wrote that in another article.

    So I take ALL that he writes with a big ole’ grain of salt, knowing his admitted background.

    GoldenAh: Thank you so much for saying that. :D

    I thought I was the only one who noticed this! That’s his shtick at the Atlantic. His (white) fans and co-writers love to pat him on the head when he serves up black dysfunctional stuff for their entertainment.

    But yeah, as for not marrying black women (or anyone wanting to marry them), that’s all he ever writes about. Endlessly. Nauseatingly. I don’t get the link love he gets from some BW. Maybe they feel like they should be supporting him, since he’s not overt and obvious about his “issues” with BW.

    I guess he’s agreeable, since he’s not writing death threats or is openly contemptuous of BW on twitter. :D

  7. Amanda
    September 30th, 2010 @ 7:07 PM

    After reading many of the opposing and just hateful comments I urge others to realize the bc is on a big massive road to croacksville. It’s just time to move on.

  8. Lisa
    September 30th, 2010 @ 8:10 PM

    Hey GoldenAh!

    I also thought I was the only one who paid attention to the Atlantic writer’s background and the themes in his articles that are typically anti-marriage or focusing on BW’s singleness rate.

    It bugs me too that a magazine like the Atlantic, which caters to the intellectual/literary crowd, has this guy as its “black representative.” Black writers rarely break through the racial barrier at these types of magazines (while they’re quick to hire the next 24-year-old white kid from Harvard with a lot of hype), so when a black person is hired, it’s this dude?????

    And like you said, I hate how so many BW cite this guy’s articles like gospel and how many white folks he has fawning over him… while they praise him, they go on and get themselves married and then have kids. I bet a whole lot of money they’re nowhere close to living out the dysfunction they praise in his life.

    GoldenAh: Exactly. I could not have said it better. Some of those bitch-ass liberal, oh-so-damn-hip, white boys enjoy mocking us, which his writing about us being single and pathetic invites. (The “othering” technique.) He once got all excited when he found some white boy who didn’t want to marry a black woman. Turns out the chump was afraid of dealing with biracial kids. Huh? I doubt the bastard even got as far as thinking of marriage.

    That’s why I wrote a post about white men being “friends” with a “brotha”. Nobody is gonna convince me that a lot of black males don’t work overtime at dissuading or punking white (and other) guys from dating and marrying black women.

    Somebody try and find a white woman’s magazine that focuses on black males in such a consistently negative fashion, like this rag does with black women.

    Yeah, I didn’t think so. Some of these folks think they’re slick. They’re not fooling anyone.

  9. lostkitty
    September 30th, 2010 @ 9:23 PM

    Lisa:
    He said she doesn’t believe in marriage and he’s cool with that.

    lostkitty:
    That’s just her way of protecting herself; she knows he does not want to marry her and she does not want to be hurt by making it an issue and risk being told that he will never marry her.

    Marriage is not just for the benefit of children. There are legal, social and emotional benefits of marriage for the woman also, and a woman must look out for herself, in addition to her children. A committed relationship is just not the same as a committed marriage. In fact, a bad marriage offers legal benefits not available from a committed relationship, not that I am advocating getting into a bad marriage.

    GoldenAh: He called her a “feminist.” Last time some guy called me “strong”, I jetted. I figure that’s codeword for “I can abuse and use you.”

    I guess she avoids reading the website, since he makes his bread constantly writing about how much he never wants to get married (to her). I suspect if this was a white girl, he’d have that engagement ring ready yesterday.

    Lostkitty, your words on marriage are on point. I don’t know how black people lost sight of this. Black women need protection more than most women, yet we are being told it benefits us the least. That only applies if the guy is a total deadbeat, but if he is, she shouldn’t even think of having a relationship (or children!) with him.

  10. Lisa
    September 30th, 2010 @ 10:10 PM

    Lostkitty, I completely agree with you.

    One commenter on his article said, “Well, regardless of what she said in the past about marriage, did you ever ask her to marry you?”

    He never answered that question, as far as I know!

    I will only believe that a woman does not want to be married if she turns down an actual proposal of marriage that comes from a man she loves and intends to stay with whether she has a ring or not.

  11. Jules
    September 30th, 2010 @ 11:28 PM

    A most poignant piece that is much appreciated.

    GoldenAh: Thank you, Jules. Glad to hear from you. :D

  12. Queen
    September 30th, 2010 @ 11:47 PM

    The “Atlantic Brotha” is definitley quite a few fries short of a happy meal. Denial, Denial, Denial!!! So it is becasue not enough bw are getting pregnant??? And exactly where did they find this person? SMH…….

  13. GoddessM
    October 1st, 2010 @ 12:44 AM

    You know I was actually hurt by Zora & Alice’s take on the whole deal.

    http://zora-alice.com/2010/09/no-wedding-no-womb-married-parents-dont-guarantee-successful-children/

    I mean, If marriage was so secondary then there wouldn’t be people out fighting everyday just to be able to do it. The benefits financially, physically and emotionally from it are so extremely valuable that it was like a shot in the face for the way they treat it. In a marriage you’re forced to work your problems out because divorce is expensive. So not only is it healthy for the child its healthy for the parents. I can’t believe this. My mom and dad were married and it didn’t last but the benefits my siblings and I received were enormous, even after the divorce. It just doesn’t make sense to me, I can’t fathom backlash but then again…

    GoldenAh: People have been getting married since ancient Egypt and beforehand. If it didn’t matter it wouldn’t be something nearly every culture around the world practices in high numbers. These people are trying to reinvent the wheel, or square a circle. They’re fooling themselves, and they’ve done enough damage to children, it needs to stop.

    Thanks for the feedback, GoddessM. :D

  14. Queen
    October 1st, 2010 @ 4:43 AM

    I pose a question, bp as a community want to get better? do we want to become self sufficient people? Or do we (I use “we” lightly) want to continue to depend on the goverment and our sterotypical images to define us?

    I understand we have challenges to overcome and there are still invisible barriers of racism that we deal with that other nationalities think we use as an excuse not to do better. I think that is simply not the truth.

    Black boys are placed in special ed at the ratio of 3 to 1 over white boys. According to a study that the wall street journal conducted afew years ago, a white man with a felony record and a high school diploma has a 64% better chance of getting hired or called back for a second interview than a black man with a college degee and no record.

    So I know not all the challenges we face are exaggeations or figments of our imagination, but I question What has happened as a whole to the BC? Have we fallen asleep at the wheel? Before intergration, black communites were stronger and though not pefect, alot more productive. Becasue of Jim Crow we were forced to work together and support each other. Now we don’t even support one another half the time in business. A dollar goes through the Jewish community 18 times before it leaves, the hispannic and asian communities? 18-24+ times, the black community? ONCE!! We Build the wealth of others before we build our own.

    During that time, more bm would have 2 or 3 jobs to provide for his family, now we have more bm sponging off their baby mamas “check”. 37% of the abortions perfomed in this country are performed on bw and they volunteer for this atrocity believing the prooganda that it is about “repreductive health” and a “womans right to choose” when in reality they fail to see what it is really about; GEONICIDE! (I advise you to watch Maafa 21 on youtube, it explains the entire history)

    When I read through old copies of Ebony magazine from the 60′s and early 70′s and I realize that the articles were more educational and challenged the bc to know who they were as a people. they posted articles that challenged and posed questions, like what could Kennedy do for the “negro” race and they asked the bc to carefuly consider who they voted for; the pros and cons and so on. of course there were also the conflicting messages like on one hand encouraging the bc to be proud of their who they were but then they plastered skin “bleaching” creams throughout the magazine to celebrate a lighter complexion, but at the end of the day at least they tried to make people think. Ebony today? nothing blut fluff and b.s. no substance; nothing to provoke how we think except the occasional re-hash about the A.I.D.S epidemic.

    A few years ago we had Jesse Jackson actually suppoting to get a law passed in support of ebonics. A woman I read about was trying to correct her niece in speaking proper english, the girls mother got offended and told this lady “she talks like a black girl,stop trying to get her to speak white”

    We seem to be all too happy in our ignoance and it is killing us    . Like the proverbial “crabs in the bucket” the bc attacks anyone who tries to do better as “selling out” or “acting white” as if making smart choices is a white thing and it is not, it is a common sense thing. people of all races make stupid choices including wp just look at the BP spill and the wall steet meltdown. We financially support a black man in a dress (Tyler Perry) but won’t encourage a bm to wear a suit. SMH If this trend continues that you so powerfully wrote about, we will have to “overcome” as individuals not as a community.

    GoldenAh: Tell it, Queen. Tell it. :D

  15. rainebeaux
    October 1st, 2010 @ 11:12 AM

    Don’t even get me started on that jive emu @ the Atlantic (almost typed his name-sorry in advance)…I’m surprised more of us aren’t RUNNING to wm after reading his stuff!

    anyway, yeah, I’m starting to think black folks are doomed, ESPECIALLY after the NWNW backlash. I. DON’T. GET. IT. they want us dead (last) for real, huh? oh wait, I already answered that. *sigh*.

    GoldenAh: Folks need to check out your blog: hilarious. ;)

    http://cardinalsyntax.blogspot.com

  16. Amanda
    October 1st, 2010 @ 11:47 AM

    anyway, yeah, I’m starting to think black folks are doomed, ESPECIALLY after the NWNW backlash. I. DON’T. GET. IT. they want us dead (last) for real, huh? oh wait, I already answered that. *sigh*.

    What’s sad is that these same bw and bm are saying the same things that NWNW is saying offline and online with youtube.

  17. Monique
    October 1st, 2010 @ 11:59 AM

    I agree wholeheartedly with your comments in the post, if BP continue engaging in self-destructive behavior “we” (and I use “we” lighlty) will self-destruct. The internal work that needs to be done is not beng done and the vast majority of BP are either too lazy, too apathetic or to willfully blind to change the course of their future. The backlash agains NWNW was unbelievable, I just cannot understand how BP could be against a movement that encourages BW (and BM) to be more responsible when it comes to the question of bringing a child into the world? It was also amazing to me that so many people harped on Christelyn’s marriage to a white man as a reason to discount this movement …SMDH!

    @Queen I agreed with everything you said, with the exception of the reference to the high rate of abortion by BW being genocide. I think having children with no structure in place to raise and take care of them is far more genocidal than BW getting abortions.

    I admit that I did not see the documentary Maafa 21, I am somewhat aware of the history of planned parenthood and it’s WW founder and her connections to the eugenics movement. However, I believe that the high rate of abortion in the BC (if indeed that is true) is due to the lack of 1. serious mature discussion about sex, sexuality, reproductive choices and effective contraception for both men and women and 2. the high cost of long-term contraception for women. Birth control pills, IUDs, Diaphrams, morning after pills, etc. are long-term costly measures that usually require a doctor or a prescription from a doctor to access and b/c many BW do not have primary OB/GYNs to counsel them and give adequate reproductive health care, many BW aren’t able to get adequate birth contral/contraceptives. Condoms are not always a viable choice b/c you have to convince the male partner to wear it…and we know how in most cases he doesn’t want to wear one. Again b/c most BW don’t have a primary OB/GYN to counsel them regarding ther reproductive health they’re not preventing pregnancies and so they view abortion as their only option to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. And although an abortion can range anywhere form $350 to $900 in most clinics they can scrap the money togethr and it’s a one shot payment

  18. Bellydancer
    October 1st, 2010 @ 12:13 PM

    Check out this survey done on black people here in indiana where 80% of black babies are born oow and blacks here are only 9% of the total population.

    http://blackamericans.com/blogs/news/archive/2008/01/25/about-80-of-black-babies-are-born-to-unwed-moms.aspx

    Also check out this response to the article from a gay man.

    Dan said:
    “While I’m very sad that this is the situation in the black community regarding unwed mothers, it is very ironic that black women were held up as some bastion of “traditional” marriage because they voted 70 percent against gay marriage in my state of California. I have a theory. My theory is that black women are seriously threatened by the concept of two men getting married. It is another barrior to them getting a suitable man who will commit to them. I’m not pointing the finger of blame at them, because I am sympathetic to their cause, but as a gay white man I resent that this personal aspect used against us. It is not MY fault that you can’t get a husband or even get a man to commit after you concieve a child together. I’m interested in forming a family of my own, and have a willing partner who WILL marry me. (Actually we were married before Prop 8, but I’m speaking hypothetically as if I couldn’t get married due to Prop 8). So, I resent the fact that those who don’t “have” would vote against those of us who, through no fault of our own, “do have” a willing mate. Am I clear enough? I’d appreciate a comment on this, and whether you think my theory has any merit…”

    SMDH he could not have gotten any clearer if he tried we throw away what most folks are coveting.
    Even though I think a lot of gay people like him were using blacks as an excuse since they are only 6% of california’s total population it could not have made that much difference.

    GoldenAh: I know what he’s getting at, but dude needs to check himself. I really like gay men. Why? ‘Cause they’re men. :D

    But isn’t it interesting that he sees the issue with black women being: WE CANNOT FIND MEN WHO WANT US? OMG.

    I think what he’s missing is that a lot people don’t like gays saying they are “married”, perhaps using “civil union” with all the same rights would be better. It’s just a matter of semantics. There were plenty of “white” states that voted against gay marriage.

    He got on us because no one pays any price for dogging black women. We’re easy game. I think he’d be surprised how many of us could not care less who or what he’s doing with another man.

    Like you said, we’re barely a blip in California’s population.

  19. Southland Diva
    October 1st, 2010 @ 3:58 PM

    Yes…and that’s my final answer.

    Peace

    GoldenAh: I know it’s not supposed to be funny, but this answer had me cracking up. LOL. :D

  20. Southland Diva
    October 1st, 2010 @ 4:13 PM

    @Bellydancer,

    I think the California vote had more to with effective advertising against the proposition and of course the voices from the pulpit. LDS was very effective in targeting the churches and churchfolk.

    The supporters did not get out in the community and advocate or explain. They expected celebrities to light the way and really did not even reach out to black/latino/asian communities until the last minute.

    ‘Dan’ is scapegoating black women, when at 6% (well more like 3%)of the population, even if they all voted yes, the measure still would have failed. I guess he can sense a target of opportunity, I mean black women are to blame for crime, government debt (welfare queens), HIV and whatever else, why not add on LGBT inability to get married. (And no, I have no problem with LGBT folks getting married.)

    Peace

  21. lostkitty
    October 1st, 2010 @ 5:18 PM

    Moniique,
    How can a woman who cannot afford birth control “scrape together” $350 to $900 to pay for an abortion? That’s a lot of money. And how is an abortion a “one shot deal” if the woman is young and fertile? Does she never have sex again? And why would a woman who does not want to get a disease or get pregnant have unprotected sex with a “partner” who is probably not having sex only with her?

    Most black women get pregnant because they do not take responsibility for their reproductive health. They allow themselves to become sperm receptacles and for some of them, magical thinking allows them to believe that if a pregnancy occurs, the man will do the right thing. Then when the pregnancy occurs and the man does not propose marriage or even any plan for co-parenting and supporting a child, they have no choice but to have an abortion.

    Birth control is not that expensive. It should be a priority for a responsible, sexually active women. The same clinics that provide abortion services most likely also provide the medical examinations and the birth control devices on a sliding fee. I know because I have used such clinics when I was a young college grad who had no medical insurance. In addition, many of these women already have or are eligible for medicaid, which pays for abortion as well as birth control in most states.

    I remember years ago I had a very nice gynecologist who was so pleased that I came to the clinic to get fitted for a diaphragm and to get free condoms even though I was not sexually active. He said he wished more black women were like me and cared about their reproductive health. He was bothered by the high rate of STDs and abortions in black women but they were just not responsive to birth control counseling. They actually used abortion as a form of birth control. Also many of them thought RU486 was no big deal.

    It was from him that I learned that more than 2 abortions can make it difficult for a woman to carry a child to term. Planned Parenthood never told me that. I also learned that bacterial STDs can scar a woman’s fallopian tubes and cause infertility. I am not against abortion but I have read that there is a high infertility rate in black women who want to get pregnant and I wonder if that is attributable to their having had too many abortions and STDs in their younger years.

    I know several black women who have admitted to having at least four abortions and one of them claimed she had a total of 7 abortions in her teens and 20′s. She ended up having 2 babies by 2 different baby daddies and then had a couple more abortions in her early thirties.

  22. Pamela
    October 1st, 2010 @ 8:47 PM

    I have been pretty busy the past couple of weeks. However I fully supported the efforts of NWNW. I became a fan on Facebook. I was so proud to see bp standing up with something that was considered normal when I was a young gal. I was horrified to think that people could get upset just because of the skin hue of her husband. This is just another sad example of how low the level of care for bw has degenerated to. At this stage of the game I would tell every bw to take care of herself and leave people (and media) alone that does not promote healthy lives for bw. There is no community. Has not been for probably 30 years.

    Someone posted about JJ campaigning for ebonics to become a valid language. I did not care for him before after criticizing The Cosby Show because ‘black people did not live like that’ when I knew a good number of them when I grew up in the DC area and still have contact with today. Then to suggest that ebonics is a real language was past amazing to me. This is the caliber of people supposedly leading the bc. NO THANK YOU.

    Black people are doomed ONLY if they listen to this foolishness being promoted today.

    GoldenAh: Hello Pamela, great to hear from you again. Awesome advice as always. :D

  23. Yellowmoon
    October 1st, 2010 @ 11:47 PM

    Pamela said, about Jesse Jackson:

    “Then to suggest that ebonics is a real language was past amazing to me. This is the caliber of people supposedly leading the bc. NO THANK YOU.”

    I’m old enough to remember that push for Ebonics. A lot of black people (and some white liberal linguistics professors) were saying it was a real, valid language and should be recognized as such.

    Really, you just don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

    GoldenAh: He actually got the entire media, and nearly all of academia, to start calling us “African Americans.” He has a lot of power in some areas, but dude has the strangest priorities sometimes. It’s a lot of hit and miss.

  24. trish
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 12:00 AM

    The individual black woman or man isn’t doomed if he or she takes steps to thrive in this life. However, the black collective is doomed. Apparently, black leaders only had a vision for civil rights. Post civil rights black men were more concerned with consumption of white or non-black flesh than the advancement of our group. They divested from the black community but demanded that the women stay and build said community. Black women are not Amazons.

    GoldenAh: I’m still curious as to who determines our culture: the media, teenagers, rappers, college students, ex-cons, gang members, pastors or what? Who sets these negative or fleetingly positive trends that have infected so many of us? Who are the masses listening to?

  25. Queen
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 2:09 AM

    @ Monique, you make some interesting points but to state that bw not being able to afford abortions or the lack sexual education is only part of the equation. There is a genuine agenda to control the reproductive health of bw. up until the early 80′s in many states in America still forced women to undergo steilizations and most of those were BW. In one school in Baltimore, Mayland in the 1990′s the govement wanted to test a new birth control insert (Norplant) in the arm and the only women they tested it on was black teenage girls. They stated their reasoning was that they wanted to bring the black teenage pregnancy rate under control which was at the time was only about 13% the flip side? the rate of white teenage girls getting pregnant was 16% Is there something wrong with this picture??? If it is the lack of education about sex and bith control that is plaguing the OOWC, then why were there more white teenagers getting pregnant than black ones?? Here is an excerpt about the Nordplant:

    The New Frontier of Population Control
    They told us this and they told us that about the Norplant and I’m going through all these changes and I’m trying to have it removed.” Yvonne Thomas, a thirty-year-old Baltimore mother, was describing her experience with Norplant, a new, long-acting contraceptive implanted in her arm at a family-planning clinic. When she began suffering from side effects, Thomas returned to have the device removed. But the clinic staff balked at her request. “Then they tell me that it’s not putting me in bed, as if they know how I feel on the inside of my body. . . I feel like because I’m a social service mother that’s what’s keeping me from getting this Norplant out of me. Because I’ve known other people that has the Norplant that spent money to have it put in and spent money to have it put out with no problems. . . . That’s how they make me feel, like ‘you got this Norplant you keep it’.”1
    Yvonne Thomas is one of thousands of Black women in the United States who have been pressured to try this controversial form of birth control. Like the others, she is a target of a campaign to push the drug on poor Black women in hopes of decreasing their birthrate. Population control policies designed to reduce births of an entire group of people for social ends are usually associated with Third World countries. In the 1990s, legislators and policymakers in the United States seized upon Norplant as a means of domestic population control. Norplant appears destined to be replaced by injectable contraceptives such as the newly approved Depo-Provera or the experimental “contraceptive vaccine” as the method of choice for reducing Black women’s fertility. Unlike that of Norplant, which can be removed (albeit by surgical incision), the contraceptive effect of an injection or vaccine cannot be reversed once the agents are shot into a woman’s bloodstream. Injections and vaccines are also easier to administer without a woman’s full awareness or consent. Negative publicity generated by women’s adverse experiences with Norplant as well as class action lawsuits filed against its distributor may make it impossible to convince enough women to use it. Still, the speedy embrace of Norplant as a means of reproductive regulation and the injuries it has already inflicted are sobering omens of the future of birth control in America. In this chapter, I describe how racial politics created this latest threat to reproductive rights and explain why increasing access to new, highly effective contraceptives does not necessarily enhance reproductive freedom.

    THE IDEAL CONTRACEPTIVE
    Norplant consists of six silicone capsules, each about the size of a matchstick, filled with a synthetic hormone called levonorgestral (the same type of progestin used in some birth control pills). The tubes are implanted in a fan-shaped design just under the skin of a woman’s upper arm through a small incision. The minor surgical procedure, which takes ten to fifteen minutes, can usually be performed in a clinic or doctor’s office under local anesthesia. Norplant prevents pregnancy for up to five years by gradually releasing a low dose of the hormone into the bloodstream. It works mainly by suppressing ovulation, but also keeps sperm from reaching the egg by thickening the cervical mucus. Originally developed by the Population Council, a nonprofit organization that promotes family planning in the Third World, Norplant is now distributed in the United States by the giant pharmaceutical company Wyeth-Ayerst Laboratories, a division of American Home Products.
    When the FDA approved Norplant for marketing in December 1990, it was hailed as the first major birth control breakthrough since the pill. The press release from Wyeth-Ayerst proclaimed the “eagerly awaited medical advance” as “the most innovative contraceptive in thirty years.” 2 From this perspective, Norplant is the ideal contraceptive — long-acting, effective, convenient. Once the tubes are inserted, a woman is protected against pregnancy for five years without any further hassle. There is no need to remember to take it daily, as with the pill. Women do not have to interrupt sex to use it, as with a diaphragm or contraceptive foam. Nor do women need their partner’s cooperation, as with condoms. Norplant’s failure rate is only 1 percent over the five-year period; in other words, it is 99 percent effective.3 Only sterilization has a better record. In fact, Norplant is so foolproof that it is really a form of temporary sterilization. Yet it has the advantage over sterilization of being reversible once the tubes are removed. At first glance, Norplant seems like the answer to women’s prayers. It has already been used by more than 1 million women in the United States and 3 million women worldwide.

    TESTING THE WATERS — THE INQUIRER EDITORIAL
    Norplant’s potential to enhance women’s reproductive freedom was quickly overshadowed by its potential for reproductive abuse. The new contraceptive was instantly embraced by policymakers, legislators, and social pundits as a way of curbing the birthrate of poor Black women. On December 12, 1990, only two days after the FDA’s approval, the Philadelphia Inquirer published a controversial editorial entitled “Poverty and Norplant: Can Contraception Reduce the Underclass?” 5 Deputy editorial-page editor Donald Kimelman began the piece by linking two recent news items: one announced the approval of Norplant, and the other reported the research finding that half of Black children live in poverty. Kimelman went on to propose Norplant as a solution to inner-city poverty, arguing that “the main reason more black children are living in poverty is that people having the most children are the ones least capable of supporting them.”6 No one should be compelled to have Norplant implanted, Kimelman conceded. But he endorsed giving women on welfare financial incentives to encourage them to use the contraceptive.

    If after reading this that we think it is still about the lack of condom or Pill usage then we are truly delusional and terrbily misinformed. This information is backed up in a Book called “Medical Apartheid” by Harriet Washington which chronicles how the BC has been used for medical experiments since colonial times.

  26. Queen
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 2:34 AM

    Here is the link for the entire above article to read for yourself.

    http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/81457-post1.html

    Here are 2 clips fom Maafa 21

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MhgwFgQHqI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxLSX2ool3s

    Another thing to note is that when Adolf Hitler came into power his first order of business was not to go after the Jewish People, it was to sterilize every black person living in Germany at the time, which he successfuly did. Was the birth rate out of control? No, the black population was very small, he hated black people and wanted to ensure they did not reproduce. And yet another thing to note is that before abortion was mad leagal, more WW were getting abortions, after Roe vs Wade? it was more BW.

    Alot of BP are attacking NWNW not realizing there is a bigger agenda targeted against them; Geonicide.

    Websters Definition of Geonicide:

    the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

  27. Queen
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 3:20 AM

    One More Clip

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyrVOHr4gzc&feature=related

  28. Queen
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 3:53 AM

    Oh By the way, Pastors were used to encourage BW to practice birth control

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VZgxBxEcDA&NR=1

  29. Boston
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 11:03 AM

    we’re not knocking the brothers down. they knocked themselves down. plus, black people are not doomed. yet. but we will be if we continue down that path. and not before long. at this rate, i believe i will see the demise of the black race in my lifetime. *sigh*

    GoldenAh: I like this blog post of yours: how white liberalism is killing the black community

  30. pioneervalleywoman
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 11:34 AM

    When I think of Coates and the essays he writes, I think of a highly functional dysfunctional person, meaning he fits in with what Khadija called the “ethical insanity” that passes for normalcy today.

    He explains that fatherhood is very important in his family. Thus, he grew up one of seven, his Black Panther father had 7 children by 4 women, ie., mothers who were best friends and children born the same year. I don’t think he was ever married to any of them. Doesn’t that sound familiar?

    In his own life, as has been mentioned, he is in a long term relationship with a woman with whom he is raising a child. They are not married and have no intention to do so.

    And here is more evidence of the insanity. They have had lawyers draft agreements of the sort to give them marital-type rights, similar, I imagine, to the types of arrangements that gay couples get in jurisdictions WHERE THEY CAN’T MARRY. Yet, this character is using lawyers supposedly to protect their rights when marriage confers those rights automatically.

    Remember, it can cost serious money to have those arrangements made, probably a lot less than the cost of a marriage certificate. So for the price of a simple wedding (ie., no frills at the courthouse with a simple luncheon/dinner), they are paying for something that they can get for next to nothing.

    GoldenAh: He writes very well and has a way with words, but he’s exactly as you said: a highly functional dysfunctional person. A lot of the anti-NWNW folks are the same: lacking morality and sanity.

  31. goldenah
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 1:40 PM

    I’m left with some more observations and impressions from the anti-NWNW folk:
    1. Black women aren’t good enough for marriage.
    2. Black women are “Other.” Different from normal women, and do not deserve the same protections from society. Too many of us are embracing this mindset.
    3. Some WW were quite eager to shoe horn themselves into the discussion that had nothing to do with them. They wanted to discuss BW like lab specimens (for their academic papers) to continue pushing “Other” on us. I guess with NWNW we were forgetting to stay in our place.
    4. Think of all the BW who complain that they are afraid of NON-black men sexing, using, and tossing them, yet as part of the anti-NWNW push they are telling folks they do NOT mind when black men do it. Oy vey.
    5. The anti-NWNW groups are working hard to lay in concrete the idea that black women DO NOT DESERVE BETTER.
    6. The anti-NWNW are inviting contempt from the rest of the world towards us. They are working hard to make it known that BW in America do NOT want to be married (or respected). They want to broadcast this message as far and wide as outer Mongolia. Outside of a few extremely “liberal” (with generous social welfare) countries in Europe with low marriage rates, the rest of the world marries.
    7. However, at least with NWNW, people will see that not all of us are emotionally, morally and mentally compromised (crazy).
    8. We’re obviously not a monolith, which is good. The only distressing thing is how far down into the ground (hell) the majority is willing to sink. There may be no recovery from that descent into oblivion.
    9. At least awareness has spread. I expect it to subside. However, even if only 1% are affected by the NWNW message, I consider that progress.

    Thanks to all of you ladies who have contributed to this discussion. :D

  32. Halima
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 2:43 PM

    Thanks for this GoldenAh…

    GoldenAh: {{a bear hug and an air kiss on each cheek}}

    Halima, I moved your comment to the blog post at the top. :D

    Thank you for clarifying my post, I was wondering if I was being a bit too arcane and esoteric. :D

  33. Babs
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 3:57 PM

    What is Dan talking about. Why is he using bw as his excuse for not being able to catch a (black ) man.

    GoldenAh: He does make it sound like there’s a bizarre tug of war going on with black women and gay men over black men.

  34. Babs
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 5:26 PM

    Exactly golden. I don’t get what a white gay male has anything to do with black women. Just odd to me

  35. Christelyn D. Karazin
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 6:26 PM

    Thanks my sisters, for the suport. Out of The Matrix we go…

    Onward,

    Christelyn

  36. Southland Diva
    October 2nd, 2010 @ 7:27 PM

    @ GoldenAh

    The situation isn’t funny, but my first response was……thanks for getting it

    ;-)

    (((IH))) (internetz hug)

    Peace

  37. Halima
    October 3rd, 2010 @ 2:01 PM

    Wow thanks GoldenAh for highlighting my comment :)

  38. Amanda
    October 3rd, 2010 @ 2:08 PM

    GoldenAh: People have been getting married since ancient Egypt and beforehand. If it didn’t matter it wouldn’t be something nearly every culture around the world practices in high numbers. These people are trying to reinvent the wheel, or square a circle. They’re fooling themselves, and they’ve done enough damage to children, it needs to stop.

    I can’t stand when people use theory that has been debunked time and time again. It’s a trip to me when people bring up pre-history, but won’t admit, that no one knows what happened during pre-history. Hell! Historians are always finding out what they thought about post/or written history is wrong. I was looking up historical dishes and the people of the site had one for pre-history. They put up a disclaimer stating to people that these recipes are speculations of what people of these times may have eaten based on what they had access to as well as what was found in the remains etc. Someone else stated that no one really knows how the people of pre-history really lived. That’s why I can’t stand when people start romanticizing and coming up with how these people lived. They don’t say could have lived. These people like to tell you exactly how these people lived as if they were there.

    “The backlash agains NWNW was unbelievable, I just cannot understand how BP could be against a movement that encourages BW (and BM) to be more responsible when it comes to the question of bringing a child into the world?”

    Frankly I believe that any movement for adults are the worst to target. It’s better to target the youth.

    “But isn’t it interesting that he sees the issue with black women being: WE CANNOT FIND MEN WHO WANT US? OMG.”

    Tells me how he really thinks of bw. It didn’t occur to him that most bw regardless of many voting democrat (or being liberal since I’ve know some conservative democrats and liberal republicans) that most bw are very conservative. Many bw are raised in the black church which is really an extension of the white church.

    GoldenAh: I’m still curious as to who determines our culture: the media, teenagers, rappers, college students, ex-cons, gang members, pastors or what? Who sets these negative or fleetingly positive trends that have infected so many of us? Who are the masses listening to?

    I’m convinced that most of the campaigns or movements, revolutions or whatever will not be televised (Read the book the Revolution will not be televised) I think that most of the time tv is the worst thing when it comes to movements. This also goes with the presidential elections. I think they either need to go back to radio or find an alternative to tv. For the president to be picked because he looks better than the opposing should tell voters that something is wrong with this picture. Anyways I believe it will take grassroots movements http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grassroots. Except it will have to be very local. No reliance on hot comb or any leader who has proven that are piddlance of ish to the bc. Black college students such as the girls at Spellman who protested Nelly coming to their campus isn’t something that we let get around. When it does bp are trying to say these girls are uppity for not wanting some fool at their school. I’ve heard of many bc’s that rallied together to vote against something that would have severely hurt their community, and they didn’t need hot comb or JJ to come to their rescue. Hell they probably knew they wouldn’t be much good anyway. People want action! They don’t want a bunch of talk that leads to no where.

    old but interesting
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/01/afghanistan.theobserver these families did what they had to do to make sure their daughters were able to learn in an environment where this is illegal.

    Now both women and girls are taking this chance http://southasia.oneworld.net/todaysheadlines/education-underground-in-afghanistan Frankly I think in order to teach bw and girls NWNW etc. will have to be underground.
    http://www.suite101.com/content/dr-sakena-yacoobi-educates-women-and-girls-in-afghanistan-a237718

    Some what different reasoning from the above Underground schools started popping up when the new pres tried to replace the culture of Belarus with Russian culture and language.
    http://www.naijarules.com/vb/news-current-affairs-politics/15493-school-partisans-goes-underground-belarus.html That’s something about the bc that I think we’ve forgotten. I’ve heard time and time again the bc complaining about how our kids are taught. They keep fighting with a system that isn’t listening. These people took their children’s education in their own hands and did something. It’s sad when you think about the past. Bp did what they had to do in order for black children to be educated.

    Anyways that’s what we are going to have to do and that even goes for working against the bc because they are the ones not listening to us.

    GoldenAh: Yes, you have me thinking. How much positive media is directed at young black girls? and boys?

  39. Monique
    October 4th, 2010 @ 12:02 PM

    I do not wish to derail the discussion, but if I have the bloghost’s permission to calrify my statements regarding abortion.

    @ lostkitty “Most black women get pregnant because they do not take responsibility for their reproductive health. They allow themselves to become sperm receptacles and for some of them, magical thinking allows them to believe that if a pregnancy occurs, the man will do the right thing. Then when the pregnancy occurs and the man does not propose marriage or even any plan for co-parenting and supporting a child, they have no choice but to have an abortion.”

    I agree with you, that’s why I stated that the high rate of abortion with BW is b/c sex, sexuality and reproductive health is not openly, honesty and maturely discussed in the so-called BC. Many young BW are not knowledgeble about reproductive health in general let alone their own bodies. THAT IS OUR FAULT AS A “COMMUNITY.” We do NOT discuss sex, sexuality and reproductive health/rights or proper birth control techniques with our young people.

    lostkitty said “…He said he wished more black women were like me and cared about their reproductive health. He was bothered by the high rate of STDs and abortions in black women but they were just not responsive to birth control counseling. They actually used abortion as a form of birth control. Also many of them thought RU486 was no big deal.”

    I agree with you. BW are not responsive to birth countrl counseling and some do use abortion as a form of birth control. The majority of us do not see the importance of birth control and family planning and many of us have bought into the idea that having babies is a “blessing” or that birth control or abortion is a form of genocide.

    lostkitty you asked: How can a woman who cannot afford birth control “scrape together” $350 to $900 to pay for an abortion? That’s a lot of money. And how is an abortion a “one shot deal” if the woman is young and fertile? Does she never have sex again? And why would a woman who does not want to get a disease or get pregnant have unprotected sex with a “partner” who is probably not having sex only with her?”

    Indeed these are the questions to ask that are not beeing asked. Often times the man will front some of the money to pay for an abortion, sicne most times it gets him off the hook, so to speak. Also, when I said “one shot” deal I meant that the problem of that particualr pregancy has been dealt with not that the woman won’t go back and have sex again, it is almost guaranteed that she will and it is almost guaranteed that she won’t use birth control, which will lead to the possibility of another abortion and so on.

    I would contend that the way sex is presented to most young people is that a woman is to plese a man, his needs matters and his wants are paramount. Young BW are not being told how to embrace their sexuality in a healthy, self-affirming way they are being taught to give “it” way. That their bodies are not for their pleasure but for the pleasure of a man. Therefore, if he wants it “bareback” then she must comply. So, if a young woman is confused and she wants the attention of this man she will agree to have sex with him without protection, it happens all the time.

    I think we agree more that we disagree. Lack of proper sex education and a damaged culture that promotes male sexual gratification over a woman’s will continually indoctrinate women to believe that they are not able to make demands on their sexual partners or stand up for their sexaul and reproductive health.

    @ Queen on the issue of abortion within the black collective being genocide. I truly hear your argument and on one level I agree with you. Another wonderful book that discusses BW sexual and reproductive health and history is “Killng the Black Body” by Dorothy Roberts.

    Social, political and public health policies throughout this country’s histroy has been mainly about having the effect to curtail and limit the reproductive liberties of BW. Your example of Norplant is an excellent one. But, in my opinion there is a danger in categorinzing black women’s choice to have an abortion “genocide”, disempowers us and limits our abilities to fight those policies. It takes the power out of our hands b/c it sounds so nefarious and too huge to fight. I am pro-choice, I think BW and all women should have the ability to choose when and if to have children and that abortion should be affordable, available and safe. I believe that with real sex education given to young people at the beginning of puberty so that they have an understanding of what their bodies are going through and why, we would be able to curtail the use of abortion as birth control.

    We all know that the powers that be benefit from BW being misinformed, miseducated, poor, struggling, and disempowered; it benefits them to limit and curtail our ability to reproduce, so waht are we going to do abut it? To couch the argument that BW having an abortion is tantamount to genocide almost sounds like those NWNW naysayers who say BW HAVE THAT BABY AT ALL COSTS !!!! THE BC NEEDS BODIES!!! I think that is danger I see with that BW having abortions = genocide argument, I just don’t think that it’s particularly helpful.

    I think the focus should be on the type of life black children are having once they are born, what type of opporunities will they have, what opportunities will they have access to? To have a child that you are not emotionally, financially, or psychologically ready for is to have that child suffer. Too many of our children are suffering.

    NWNW, birth control, abortion, proper sex education are all tools that can be utilized to stem the tide of so many of our black children being born to sub-par lives. Thank you for the links, I will be sure to read them.

    GoldenAh: You raise some interesting points, Monique. Clarification helps everyone. I don’t mind if you want to expound on your thoughts. This is a discussion we all need to have. :D

  40. lostkitty
    October 4th, 2010 @ 11:56 PM

    Monique:
    Thanks for clarifying. I think we do agree more than we disagree. I am just so tired of black women’s casual attitude about having children, especially after the first child. I feel that we are doomed. I have a 36 year old sister who is a baby momma by two different men who did not help to support their child; both men were out of the picture before their child was born. She does not work and has never had an interest in doing so. She hangs out all day with unemployed ghetto people, most of them in their early 20′s. Our mother has been financially supporting my sister since the day she was born and my sister’s children since they were born. In addition, my other sister, my eldest brother, and I have provided financial and emotional support to my nephews since they were born; we three however, have no children of our own and while we were helping her, we were also young and struggling but responsible enough to not have children. She has no gratitude for the help she receives from us, and the more we give, the more she demands and urinates on us.
    My sister wants to have another baby with another unemployed, baby daddy. She is angry at my mother for losing her job a few days ago (my mother was forced to retire) and is expecting us to help her support this third child when she finally has it (she is not yet pregnant). She expects to live off of our mother’s social security and continue to drain her financially and mentally.

    This is it for me; my sister is on her own if she has another child. I love my nephews and I do not regret the love and financial support that I have given them over the years, but I will have absolutely nothing to do with another child of hers born out of wedlock. What gives her the right to have a child that she cannot care for, at the age of 36? She cannot use the naivete of youth or lack of good role models as an excuse the third time, pushing 40 years old. She is just shameless ghetto trash and I am not going to make excuses for her anymore. At some point, we have to take responsibility for ourselves as adults no matter what we were raised to think and believe. We are not wild animals operating only on instinct; we have the ability to learn, think and reason if we choose to do so.

    Most black women are just intellectually lazy. It is a shame that lower animals seem to make better choices about mating and breeding than do many black women. I can’t blame men of other races for not choosing us as partners at the same rate as non-black women because it seems that most black women are controlled by their lizard brain and can only eat, fight, and breed. Sorry if my opinions offend anyone but that is just how I feel right now.

    GoldenAh: The one thing I never understand is, if they have no intention of loving, caring, feeding, nurturing, and educating the child – why have it? Why bring a kid into the world, when they will neglect it? Is this some kind of an extreme case of misery loves company? Why not tie up the tubes and then freak all the men you want? SMH.

    Hey, they are free to have as many as they want, but a lot of us are getting past the point of being robbed (by the government) to pay for selfishness and carelessness. People are obligated as adults to be responsible citizens, it’s not just “it takes a village to take care of me and mine.”

  41. Queen
    October 5th, 2010 @ 12:37 AM

    @ Monique, I agree that their is more to it than just staying preganant, there is a moral responsibility to taking care of that child. I am cetainly not advocating just having babies IMHO abortion should be treated as a LAST RESORT than an option like you are picking something off the drive-thru menu. Not every BW who choses abortion is poor, impoverished and ignorant;there are moore than I would like to count but to push that belief as the general rule is to say that we agree with the eugenists that we are too “feeble minded” to know what is best for lives. (it is not just black children in foster care, the children of alot of negligent white and hispanic parents are there too, I have collegues who are social workers). I have a friend who was fom a middle class black family, she is a investment broker by trade, screenwriter and author who got pregnant twice (I think she said she forgot to take the pill) and opted to have an abortion, twice. She was well versed in birth control and that was her decision. She was not poor and ignorant, she was a professional who felt she was not ready for that responsibility so she had the abortions.

  42. Queen
    October 5th, 2010 @ 1:03 AM

    Here is another thought, is it possible that the media makes it a note to keep the focus on the BC and their OOW birth rate to deflect attention from other race groups and keep bp in a negative light? I am not saying that OOW rate in the BC is not valid but if I can keep drawing attention to the wart on your nose, nobody will be looking at the wart on mine. I live in California and I hear of complaints to end section 8 because of “certain people” who need to stop wasting our tax dollars and get off it. What is interesting though is another friend of mine who is a pharmacy technician in the pricey Beach Town of Marina Del Rey informed me that most of her white patients are on section 8 and its a well kept secret, but when they talk about section 8 issues on tv and in the paper out here, they attach poor black families to “the problem” of section 8, same thing with welfare.

    Just a thought…….

  43. Amanda
    October 5th, 2010 @ 11:02 AM

    GoldenAh: Yes, you have me thinking. How much positive media is directed at young black girls? and boys?

    I thought about this when I used to hang out at scifinoir and other scifi and fantasy clubs geared toward black people. Now don’t get me wrong I loved those groups, but one thing that always got me was they wanted for more black people to read scifi. One guy was upset that many black youth aren’t or reading or writing scifi. Yet these same people would mostly target the adults who weren’t trying to read it anyway. On top of that (nothing wrong with this) a couple of the ones complaining wrote erotic scifi. Well I’m sorry, but when is the last time any parent wanted their child reading erotica? Anyways I even mentioned this and go shot down. So I’m writing my own. I’m doing the Ekon’s Adventure (working title) as a screenplay and Jabarl and the Legend of Bron as a novel (possible series of books)

    I came to the conclusion if you want things to change then you have to start with the young. The older generation are more set in their ways. I think this is why even though the civil rights movement happened, irr were happening on school campuses or even when kids weren’t going to school nothing ever really changed (well it did, but slowly) because when these young people got into the real world of the older generation they weren’t having any of that.

    GoldenAh: Fantastic! I’m glad to hear you are producing content. Now that I think of it, I don’t know of any sci-fi books aimed at black kids/pre-teens. Maybe there’s a market for it.

    I have to hurry up. I cannot believe the year is almost over. I meant to write more stories, but I’ve been distracted. I think I do best in the winter. I have to get cranking. ;)

  44. Monique
    October 5th, 2010 @ 3:18 PM

    @ lost Kitty: I totally hear your frustration regarding your sister. I would feel the same exact way you do if I were in your position. we all have to have boundaries in our lives and we have to enforce them, if your sister refuses to do better than you really have no choice but to remove yourself from that situation.

    @ Queen: you raise an interestig point. It’s true all things negative seems to be happening in our communities and we need to always be mindful that other communities are suffering just as much if not more than he so-called BC.

    However, my mother alwasy say “puss (meaning cat) and dog don’t have the same luck.” So even if other communities are pretty jacked up, the so-called BC suffers more and becomes eveyone elses scapegoat; therefore we must be vigilant about so many things, our image, our health, our children, their futures, it’s sooo tiring but no one else is going to do it, but us.

    GoldenAh: Good points, Monique.

  45. Monique
    October 5th, 2010 @ 3:42 PM

    Oh and much thanks GoldenAh for allowing me to clarify my post :)

    GoldenAh: You are very welcome. :D

    It’s good to see us talking about life, liberty, reproductive freedom, and the pursuit of happiness. I think it’s a shame that those of us who practice discipline, self-control, and self-respect in our lives, are almost always conned into feeling guilty, because we are not running and picking up after the selfish and indulgent. (See Khadija’s wonderful essay on Grasshoppers.)

    I feel the children are hostages. Women are having babies in the worse circumstances possible, and we are guilt-tripped or berated into “helping” them. Nobody wants children to suffer. However, so much grief could be avoided if more women thought before they had the children, and with who they are having them with. That kind of common sense is as old as time. Now women want to pop them out, hope for the best, and get angry if people say it’s not a good idea to live this way.

    There are no perfect circumstances in which to have children, but it’s been said, proven, and documented nearly everywhere that two married and involved parents are better than one, regardless of whose feelings it hurts. :)

  46. rainebeaux
    October 5th, 2010 @ 7:40 PM

    @lostkitty: oh.my.GAWD. I’m so sorry. pissed off with and for you…why? One, just on GP (dude…what? You got two children and don’t want to work—the hell!?). Two: her actions reflect very, VERY badly on the single moms like myself who are TRYING.SO.HARD to make do! I believe that is why any man/men worth a damn wants no parts of us (the ones w/oow children, that is)…shoot, some of us could’ve got our Magellan on twice over with or without the child(ren) in tow, grabbing degrees with a Nobel Prize on the side…and it STILL won’t be enough! (I read your comment over at BB&W, and I was straight-up floored: I can’t pay a wm to ask my name at Starbucks but…oh, word?) So so tired…sorry for the rant.

    that’s why I wrote this. Again, damn.

    GoldenAh: Oh, don’t say that Rainebeaux! If a man loves a woman he’ll accept her and her child (I think probably one is the limit). Yes, the hurdle might be higher, but there are many blended families today. You are someone who obviously cares. {{virtual hugs}} Don’t let it get you down.

  47. Khadija Nassif
    October 5th, 2010 @ 7:55 PM

    I apologize for the length of this comment. I just couldn’t let the “abortion/birth control = genocide talk” go without posting a reply.

    Have the people who feel that way ever considered the issue of quantity vs. quality. Having an AA collective increasingly filled with unwanted children who are genetically disadvantaged (negative genetic inheritances such as a predisposition to severe mental illness, low IQs), suffering from Fetal Alcohol Syndrome or born drug-exposed, and often traumatized by abuse or neglect does NOT help the AA collective.

    Anybody who has spent any amount of time (for any reason) around the Black underclass has seen this ongoing deterioration for themselves.

    Anyone who has spent any amount of time working in the child welfare system (be it in court, or as a caseworker) can tell you an extremely ugly reality about children who are the result of unplanned, uwanted pregnancies: Many of the already existing discarded/taken away children in foster care are safety risks. For everybody around them. Many of them have negative genetic inheritances such as very low IQs and predispostions for severe mental illness. On top of these negative genetic inheritances, many of them have also been severely traumatized by their experiences of living with neglectful and abusive biological parents.

    Nobody talks about the adopted toddlers who hoard food in their pockets. Or the toddlers who bang their heads against walls when they don’t get their way. Or the adopted first-graders who try to rub the genitals of every adult they encounter—because that’s what they’ve been trained to do by their mother’s new-baby-daddy. Or who masturbates in public. Or the adopted 8-year-old who sexually molests the adoptive parents’ younger biological children. Or who is revealed to be schizophrenic when they hit puberty.

    I’ve never met a pro-forced-birth AA who had any sort of plan for dealing with the existing unwanted pregnancies that turned into the above-described deranged AA children. No, they’re through with the situation after the woman/girl gives birth.

    In addition to having no plan to clean up the existing mess created by existing unwanted AA children, the pro-forced-birth AAs don’t understand that the birth of more unwanted AA children will be the DEATH of the rest of us. Having an AA collective that is increasingly filled with low IQ, predisposed to be mentally ill, neglected and abused children who are likely to continue the abuse cycle when they grow up does NOT help any of us.

    And let’s be real about our distate with so-called eugenics: The plain truth is that it’s the LEAST capable AAs who are having an ever-increasing proportion of AA births. Productive modern AAs generally don’t have more than 3 children. Many of our best and brightest BW are not having children (for a variety of reasons). Meanwhile, the AA female drug addicts, never-worked-a-day-in-their-lives welfare recipients, and criminals generally have at least 3-4 children—and it’s more like 5-6 births. This overall pattern does not bode well for the future of the AA collective.

    I can take the Catholic position about abortion and birth control seriously, and give them a certain amount of respect, because their actions demonstrate that they are S-E-R-I-O-U-S about what they’re saying. The Catholic community has spent their own money (in donations) to develop an entire religious-based social service infrastructure to deal with unwanted pregnancies.

    As with 99.99% of AA talking points, this “birth control/abortion” talk is empty rhetoric. There’s no intention whatsoever of following through on that talk (like the Catholics do). As is our tradition, these self-described “pro-life” Blacks are looking for somebody else (meaning the state) to make all the efforts toward cleaning up the mess.

    Let me end with this work-related observation:

    Those AAs who don’t have regular contact with large numbers of the AA underclass have NO clue about how dangerous and defective this demographic and their offspring are. And this demographic’s level of functioning is decreasing with each year. Let me give one example that most folks aren’t aware of/have never really considered.

    EVERY mentally retarded AA woman client or client’s daughter that I’ve ever encountered (who’s not living in some kind of institution) has been/is being long-term sexually exploited by some non-retarded man/men. Every. Single. One.

    These (in some cases, working and married) NON-retarded AA males often tell these retarded women to hand over their disability checks. And they do. Many of these women and girls have babies—year after year—by these various males who are exploiting them. Social services doesn’t always catch up with these exploited, retarded women with their first baby. They have to get caught doing something strange with their child to put themselves on the child welfare “radar.”

    Some of these retarded, long-term sexually exploited women don’t get noticed by child welfare until after their first few children are delayed and pregnant pre-teens/young teens themselves! By which point, these women typically have a brood of at least 4-5 children. Most of whom are delayed and/or emotionally disturbed themselves. Even if their children had a chance of being born with a normal IQ, what chance did they have of growing up to be functional—after being raised by this type of mother? Slim to none.

    Many of these retarded women are on drugs; others of them are mentally ill. A large number of these women are retarded, AND using drugs, AND mentally ill—all at once. These women are not going to have it together enough to use birth control.

    What in the world does anybody expect from the grandchildren birthed by these women’s also sexually exploited, pre-teen and teenage, delayed and retarded daughters?!!! How do these “we need raw numbers” Black folks think we’re going to build a functioning collective off of multiple generations of mentally ill, drug-marinated, developmentally delayed brains?

    AAs need to stop tripping about this “we need raw numbers to build our nation” talk. A collective composed of GENERATIONS of dysfunctional people is a burden and a disaster for the normal people among that group.

    GoldenAh: Comments like this are appreciated. It’s painful, but it needs to be said. It’s better to have a smaller, smart, and functioning collective than the increasingly disabled, damaged, and vulnerable one that’s growing now.

    You are a firsthand witness to how bad it is. Some of your accounts brought tears to my eyes. We don’t have to be the face of suffering. It is so unnecessary. I think like Halima said it best, we have people who feel that to be authentically black = dismal dysfunctional poverty. It doesn’t have to be that way.

    Thank you for your testimony, Khadija, it’s a bracing reality check.

  48. Babs
    October 5th, 2010 @ 8:28 PM

    Lost kitty I feel you. But with the thing about nonbm not choosing us because of the kids thing and other things is not entirely true. Latina women are just as much best down ghetto and baby mama drama as much as bw. And Latina teens have kids like rabbits. Thing is they have a stronger sense of pride that they do not allow themselves to be as exploited as blacks have. Also it’s not fair that all bw who want to date irr have to suffer bc of Afam womens silly choices. We may have brown skin but we are no all African American. And to be frank I am tired as a carribean woman to be added to something I am not in and haven’t seen growing up. I love bw but because I’m black men treat me different. And many times cause of the state af am women allow themselves to stay in. I say stay because sometimes we get stuck I’m something ww don’t choose but doesn’t mean we have to remain there. Someone really needs to speak of the African , black Latina and carribean women who are unfairly labeled and prejudged because of the state afam allow themselves to stay in. We may have our bad apples but we don’t get as bad. I’m sorry ladies. Something that’s been weighing on my mind

  49. Babs
    October 5th, 2010 @ 8:30 PM

    Hopefully y’all understand me amidst the terrible typos. :p)

    GoldenAh: How about clarifying a bit more? I didn’t fully understand some of what you wrote. :)

  50. Babs
    October 5th, 2010 @ 10:17 PM

    Golden what I mean Is that I’m a black woman from the carribean and I just realized I like wm. But wm seem so afraid of bw in america. Online and off. And I feel it’s because of So many bw who choose to act like stereotypes. As a young woman it’s hard for me to take in the fact of what many of you are saying about the dire state of bw today. As a bw I feel that I’m a disadvantage. Unfairly.

    GoldenAh: Hmm. I didn’t mean to upset you (or any of the silent lurkers). Sometimes I’m too tongue in cheek for my own good. This is a serious topic, and we will be downbeat, because there are ugly facets to reality we cannot avoid. Yet, I’m also a pragmatic optimist. Some of us, not all, will do alright.

    I wish I could wave a magic wand and make things better, but we know that the most we can do is be our individual best (in spite of the racist / sexist jerks, even among our own “race”), and focus on being around those who lift you up.

    And your comment has made me realize it’s time to find stuff that’ll make us smile. :D

  51. Babs
    October 5th, 2010 @ 10:32 PM

    Meaning I feel like I have to deal with stuff that other women don’t. I want bw to stop being so angry and stupid about men. I want bw to stop letting people speak for and about them and work together more often.

    GoldenAh: It’s feasible. We’re trying. I think we’ve been thinking we had “leaders” when the truth was we’ve been on our own for so long. :)

  52. Queen
    October 6th, 2010 @ 2:29 AM

    @Khadija I had no idea the majority of BW having all these OOW babies were retarded or mentally unfit. Informative and eye opening.

  53. Queen
    October 6th, 2010 @ 3:02 AM

    I cannot speak for anyone else comments, but I am concerned that some of the responses seem to focus on the belief that in avoidance abortion/birth control that to have huge numbers of OOW births is encouraged. Nothing could be further from the truth. Building strong communities by building strong families with a healthy two parent home is vital. Responsiblity before conception should be done.

    Khadijah’s infomation is sad and disturbing and these things need to change. These babies acting out what adults have done to them makes me mad! This black underclass is what fueled the eugenics movement coupled with their disdain for all black people, even the responsible ones; countless documents, news paper clippings including margret sangers biography document this fact. To dismiss the eugenics agenda as “so-called” is like saying all those people lynched in the south during Jim Crow was just due to irrisponsible BM being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just becasue I refuse to believe that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west does not make it any less true. But it does not take away from the fact that this is a huge problem and these poor babies are suffering the most weather they are born or aborted.

    GoldenAh: Interesting discussion all around, Queen.

  54. Yellowmoon
    October 6th, 2010 @ 9:43 AM

    Regarding the chances of finding a significant other while you have a child from another relationship, I don’t wish to instill false hope as I don’t think it happens very often, but it does happen.

    If you read the comments contained in the post, “For Black Women: Why White Men Are A Better Choice” on this blog, you’ll note that a couple of the BW that wrote in mentioned that they had a black child from a previous (unmarried) relationship, and that their new/current boyfriend-fiance-husband was cool with that. I remember one in particular where the woman writing was in her forties and stated she had a large, surly teenage son who really resented any man who got near his mother, and her white boyfriend was working within that construct and succeeding, everyone was pretty happy.

    Christelyn over at “Beyond Black and White” was a baby momma when she met her husband. Their blended family is doing well from all appearances. The author who penned “Don’t Bring Home A White Boy” had a black chold from her first relationship and she is married to a white man and that blended family is doing well, it seems.

    So, it does happen. I agree, it’s a much tougher scenario for those BW that wish to be date, and then mate, as many men shy away from getting involved with a woman of any race that has any children from previous relationships, but it can happen and it does happen. My intuitive sense is that it’s probably easier if the kid(s) is/are younger as opposed to older, and I’d be willing to bet that it’s probably easier if you have a girl as opposed to a boy. But that’s just my guess; I don’t have anything to back that up.

    I will say this: As Golden Ah has also noted on this blog when the subject has come up previously, if you can find someone that loves you like a husband and lover should, AND, is willing to love your child from another man and take on the responsibility of raising that child, well, that’s a hell of a man right there.

    One more thing: If you do have a child already, and are interested in dating IR, at least that combination works in your favor. Unlike today’s crop of black men, who tend to flee headlong from responsibility of any kind, I think most white men are not afraid of more responsibility when it comes to family. I can’t speak for Asian men or Hispanic men as I have no experience with those guys.

    GoldenAh: Lovely comment, Yellowmoon. :D

    You remember some of the comments better than I! There are a lot of good guys out there, let’s not be afraid. :)

  55. Amanda
    October 6th, 2010 @ 11:56 AM

    Golden what I mean Is that I’m a black woman from the carribean and I just realized I like wm. But wm seem so afraid of bw in america. Online and off. And I feel it’s because of So many bw who choose to act like stereotypes. As a young woman it’s hard for me to take in the fact of what many of you are saying about the dire state of bw today. As a bw I feel that I’m a disadvantage. Unfairly.

    I get what you are saying, but that hasn’t stopped white men from dating or marrying African or Carribbean women. And to us as an example like we are some kind of pariah on African and other non AA Women is an insult to AA women. Yes we have our faults and most of it is social. I mean seriously every women and people in general are different from each other based on socio economic background as well as culture. As for why many AA women act certain ways is because of the bc indocrinating AA women for their own purposes. Many times it is safer to act like the ABC crew if you are surrounded by that (but don’t let it become you).

    I used to act like I wasn’t getting the grades I was getting in middle school. I had to act like I liked the music that the other kids and in the neighborhood did. (thing is in those times you had your crap, but R&B and even some hip-hop hadn’t been consumed by the crap that is now spewed to youth. High school didn’t matter. What I got from your post was more of a I want to date white guys or non-bm, but I am not like those blacks. Maybe that’s not what you were saying, but that’s how it came out. At least seemed to.

    Yeah maybe these guys are put off or afraid. Frankly though it sounds like these types of guys are either some pure’ d punks or they jwrtiy anyway. Remember you are only looking for one man not 300mill. If they were interested they would come to you. Hell if you give them signals that you are approachable then apparently you aren’t going to one of those monsters that eat the heads off of people that you see in those cheesy bad b movies on SYFY. I mean seriously it’s not like he’s coming across Megasnake or Supergator (Yeah I watch those turkey’s sometimes.) You need to worry that his ass isn’t Mansquito.lol

    Meaning I feel like I have to deal with stuff that other women don’t. I want bw to stop being so angry and stupid about men. I want bw to stop letting people speak for and about them and work together more often.

    Well yeah. For one thing the men of these other women put their women on a pedestal. I don’t care how much these women complain they don’t want it, or men say that men shouldn’t prop women on a pedestal etc. Those women are not fighting it like they act like they are and the men are going to keep doing it, because men and women think and act differently.

    Another thing you have to realize is that it’s unrealistic to think everyone is going to do this or that. Believe me black movements were and are still about bp as a whole doing this or that as if we all have the same values, morals or ideas of what is offensive. At the end of the day it is about you as an individual. Believe me I used to get myself all up in knots in my younger years until many of my elders and even those in my age group advised me to work on my individual self and goals.

    In fact it was a black male friend and co-writer that told me not to get worked up on trying to save the whole of black America. It can’t be done. People have to save themselves. You can give them the means, but if they don’t it then you move on. Focus on yourself and that’s what I’ve been doing. During those years (when I first discovered nationalist teachings, Afrocentric philosophy etc.) I felt guilty for wanting to do for self. Good thing that ish was squashed at an early age. Hell even feminists don’t agree. Seriously it can ugly. It’s so bad that you have the younger gen are confused because they do what is considered feminist or the point of feminism, but don’t get respect from the feminist community.

    You also have to be careful, because it’s easy to get caught up in pity parties. There a bw/wm or bw-ir blogs and forums that are nothing, but pity party bunches o’ fun with black women going on and on about how wm or other men used them for sex. Blogs and forums abound about how wm or other non-bm don’t want bw or children. I joined a yahoo group for bw/wm that I quickly un-joined, because it was just depressing and nothing, but no one wants us. I seriously think the moderator either needs to start telling the women what’s up on the blog or start deleting members.

    This we need to listen to everyone’s said, everyone has a voice, or something to say is for the birds. I went to a blog
    probably my first and last time (well not exactly I used a couple of the guys posts for my own article) because he stated that WM do not want BW because they don’t want black children. I was like WTH. He goes on to say how he’s different from other wm etc. Lets just say I don’t read that blog. Like I said before I only used maybe one or two discussions and I think only one, because the message of that article matched my blog.

    Whatever you do avoid pity party sites, blogs, forums or any discussion. Also work to avoid doing them yourself. Believe me once you get that started you only make yourself feel like ish and it doesn’t stop there. You start to doubt yourself    . You then go to confirm your pity party blues and these other women (some of them want others in misery with them fooorrr eh fooohr!.lol And you know what they say. Misery loves company.

    GoldenAh: Awesome comment, Amanda. Awesome. :D

  56. Amanda
    October 6th, 2010 @ 12:07 PM

    http://cookit.e2bn.org/historycookbook/879-burstin-and-milk.html

    for the pre-history recipe. I couldn’t remember the site name cause I wrote it down instead of bookmarking. Dude always bookmark.lol The site makes sure to inform people that this is based on spec.

  57. Sephora
    October 6th, 2010 @ 12:32 PM

    @Yellowmoon

    I agree, these single women with a kid shouldn’t get down about their chances. I’m not going to lie and say their chances are just as good as a women who is childless and single, but it’s hardly the end of the world.

    My girlfriend had a daughter by a black guy who promptly left town, and she dated only white men since, and it took eight years and a few false starts, but she was married to a wonderful guy this spring. He loves her and loves her daughter. He treats my friend like a queen and he treats her daughter like a little princess. In fact, my friend has to keep reminding him not to spoil that little girl, because he is. But, he’s spoiling my friend, too, and she not trying to stop him from doing that, lol.

    Regarding the bigger question of whether the black race is doomed, I’d have to say, no way from a global perspective. From a U.S. perspective? Hmm, that’s looking pretty dicey.

    GoldenAh: African Americans don’t seem aware of how powerful they are. This incredible force is ebbing and getting tossed away like it never existed.

    Trends that influence a population can spread (good or bad) like a virus. Also, let’s not assume that the concept of “Acting Black” (blackness = depravity) won’t spread worldwide. I was in Europe watching TV, and was horrified and angry at the rancid portrayal of black people (in the US), which gets to be the definition of all black people everywhere.

    I don’t think black people (in the USA) are doomed. But in the pyramid of “classes”, the bottom is getting wider, and their crippling “thought rot” continues seeping up to the working and middle class bringing them down. It used to be that the top led the masses as good leaders, not the bottom.

  58. Amanda
    October 6th, 2010 @ 7:08 PM

    ” I’d be willing to bet that it’s probably easier if you have a girl as opposed to a boy.”

    I know it was for me. I usually liked the guys my mom dated. Or at least the ones that were allowed to meet me. According to my mom many didn’t. I’ve known far too many women that let men they are dating meet their children and they haven’t even vetted them fully yet.

  59. Babs
    October 7th, 2010 @ 7:18 PM

    Actually i was not trying to offend all af am women. That would be silly. But maybe we should stop making it individualistic and start admitting that as bw we face some issues that sometimes we play a part in. I was not trying to offend all bw but as a bw I am getting to the point where I need to reflect on the state of things and admit that many times af am women do play a part in their demise. I never once said other bw or other women or men don’t have issues. But we are on a bw forum.so is it ok that I keep it on topic? Getting upset is only proving that there is an issue but we rather not tackle. Not seeing how we win there. As a young bw I have done a lot to please self and family but when it comes to it- bw as a whole have many issues to overcome. We can’t always blame a man or society. Sometimes we need to get our grown on and stop saying we are being attacked. Yes we are strong. Yes we are beautiful. Yet we still die. We still look unnapproachable

    GoldenAh: That’s cool, Babs. That’s why clarifying is needed. Plus, I don’t think anyone here is mad. :)

    Oh, I think that black women – who are able to – do acknowledge their issues. That is something of which there is a lot of going back and forth on a lot of these blogs. Part of me wishes we had good psychiatrists or psychologists to come up with some solutions, because I know I haven’t a clue. And exploring these issues are allowed… of course.

    This is a hard topic, isn’t it? You acknowledge how batsh*t crazy black women can be, and you might wonder how much the rest of America sees this. And you wonder – does that stink gets on you like a firecracker in dog poo? And you look around and think – does anyone else smell it? Are they thinking poorly of me as a black woman in America?

    My feeling is this overall: no one thinks about us at all. The people most likely to give us grief are: 1) black men 2) crazy black women 3) and other folks who don’t like us, and that percentage of the population probably isn’t large enough to worry about despite the hateful comments on some web sites.

    Don’t always think everyone is looking down on us. Last year, when I was in Italy – the men were very nice and one even said, “Michelle Obama” to me. He was conveying his nice impression of our country. Our images are varied. By the way, the first lady is ranked as the most powerful woman in the world.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6955T720101006

    I’ve decided to devote interesting or positive stories about black women this month. Hopefully, I’ll remain consistent. :D

  60. Amanda
    October 8th, 2010 @ 2:15 PM

    But maybe we should stop making it individualistic and start admitting that as bw we face some issues that sometimes we play a part in.

    Many bw know this already. The thing is it’s not realistic. The fact is people are individuals and are going to have individual values, goals, ideas, morals. What you think is bad someone else might not and it’s not right to try to force people based on what you believe or how you interpret something. Only way for us to stop making it individualistic is if we became the borg collective. There’s nothing wrong with wanting change, but you have to remember that you are dealing with people once you start implementing it.

  61. Amanda
    October 8th, 2010 @ 2:20 PM

    And the comments should tell you something. Folks are going to bitch about us no matter if we do good or bad. I’ve seen comments from non-bw even some men and even bm and bw that have been ugly against Michelle, because she isn’t what they expect or want. This was even the case before the bc went downhill. Many bw who weren’t what ww or others expected (and that was many bw in the community, mos def prob the majority) were thought of as strange creature and other ugly things. There are always going to be people trying to put us in a box. Our job as individuals is to work on ourselves and show people that you as an individual will refuse to be put in someones box.

    GoldenAh: You’ve been so on point Amanda. :)

  62. Babs
    October 8th, 2010 @ 7:22 PM

    Y’all could disregard my comment yesterday. I misread what was said. Sorry ladies. Keep doing what you doing !

    GoldenAh: Don’t worry about it. You’re welcome to continue commenting. No harm no foul. :D

  63. Babs
    October 9th, 2010 @ 5:03 PM

    Thanks. Ok so anyone know why our music stars don’t have our images in their vids anymore? I just watched neyos latest video -one in a million and his chick is def not black. And I noticed that robin thicke is casted with lighter women. Sad

    GoldenAh: I have to admit, I had to think for a few moments as to “Who is Neyo?” Yeah, I barely know who the latest R&B / Rap artists are. I don’t watch their videos either.

    Well, the trend for most people in this industry is to USE black women in a lot of their initial videos. Like how a lot of TV shows start out with a lot of blacks, but by year two or three they’re mostly gone. Black women will get excited about a singer / rapper, talk about them endlessly, do free promotions for them, and when the mainstream discovers this hot new artist, he starts to gradually pretend we don’t exist. Textbook stuff.

    Hollywood Shuffle by Keenen Ivory Wayans is an old film that touches on this issue (rather funny too). :D

  64. Kay
    October 9th, 2010 @ 6:02 PM

    I just wanted to tell you that this post was so on point. I think it’s all about spreading the message. There will always be fools out there spreading nonsense. It’s so sad that truth and lies are given equal footing in the country. I am just glad that some black women have the opportunity to escape.

    GoldenAh: Thank you, Kay. As more of us add our voices to the “do what’s best for you, save yourself, and prosper the right way” chorus – it will get through. :D

  65. Babs
    October 10th, 2010 @ 4:34 PM

    Wow are you serious golden? Wow

    GoldenAh: Sort of like, if you watch the career of someone like Will Smith – his costars went from dark black women to light black women, then white Latinas to white chicks. When black actors (starring in black films or as R&B/rappers) finally cross over they don’t co-star with a black woman they get a bi-racial (barely black looking woman), a white Latina, and sometimes no woman at all. If you watch Ludacris in 2fast 2furious, or Tyrese in some recent flicks – there are no black women at all. That’s how it trends. And when they start to feel their careers fade, then it’s back to the routine of “I luvs da sistahs” in films / music.

    Well, it’s not 100% in every case, but it certainly seems that way if you give a lot of these guy’s careers a cursory glance. :D

  66. Babs
    October 11th, 2010 @ 10:33 AM

    Do the guys pick their co stars? Would you know?

    GoldenAh: Depends. If the R&B / Rapper has a video being made they can decide who they want. No one really tells these guys what to rap, sing, or put in their videos. Will Smith has been executive producer (the real power in getting a film made) since I, Robot. Maybe even further back. He got the darkskinned mother replaced with the lightskinned mother on The Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

    As for the other guys, if a film is showcasing an R&B / Rap artist, he is one of the stars (even if listed 3rd / 4th). He could ask for a black woman to get some film time. The reason they don’t bother is because they don’t care, but they have the power to do it. The second reason is they, like many other people, realize that black women don’t require any reciprocity for their support. They will be cast with non-black women, then whine and pretend they can’t give a black actress any work except as a booty shaker in a video. Alrighty then.

    Last, but not least, ever notice that in a majority of films Denzel Washington always makes sure his main squeeze, wife and love interest is a black woman? Long after he “arrived” he continued to make this the case.

    The media is a nepotism business. Everyone in any business makes sure friends, family, and their “folks” get a piece of the pie. :D

  67. Babs
    October 12th, 2010 @ 7:58 AM

    Bill Cosby and Denzel Washington are the only black male celebs I trust. I didn’t know will smith was racist against bw. That’s so sad. Black men have really dropped the ball haven’t they. Men are supposed to protect and fight for women. Not the other way around. Other men see this. Maybe that’s why some are attracted to our vigor. Maybe to them our strength isn’t necessarily negative but actually a turn on cause they may feel other women are so needy and sterotype to the female image. While bw stick by a man no matter what. Though I don’t advocate for it I may see why that is particularly attractive. Otherwise, I wish bw would wake up and find other ways to make men attracted if they so wish.

  68. Babs
    October 12th, 2010 @ 8:04 AM

    Because it seems we have to (unlike other women ) rely on ourselves for promotion. Therefore, let’s work on ourselves while racist bm self destruct. It will blow up in their faces like nobodys business. Not all bm but I feel that if you tolerate it – you are part of it. Can’t be afraid to speak if you didn’t find it true in some way.

    GoldenAh: I don’t know when or where it started, but black males in America (and maybe this disease is spreading in the Western World) have this bizarre belief that they are in competition with black women. I regard it as a sign of a mental illness. Their competition is other men, but they pretend they aren’t aware of that. {{Shrug.}} Whachagonnado? :)

    It’s important to document their behavior to see where the damage is being done, i.e. the lack of healthy and normal self-interest in seeing the “black community” prosper and thrive. They are supposed to be the leaders. It’s a man’s world. Whether men go up or down, they drag the women and children with them. Black people are no different.

    Black women still believe they need this collective of strangers who happen to be black males. Yet, outside of a worthwhile relative or husband, they don’t matter at all. We’ll do fine without the majority of them, since we have no choice. I hope they sort themselves out. However, they’re not my concern.

    :D

  69. Babs
    October 12th, 2010 @ 7:06 PM

    You go girl!! Lol. My only brother is the male specimen borne from my mama! Haha

    GoldenAh: That’s what I’m talking about. :)

  70. Babs
    October 13th, 2010 @ 9:18 PM

    Off topic. But I noticed that Asian women and black men are very similar. Because once they get a little educated off they are to white partners. Asian men and bw suffer similar plights where they are being left by their colorstruck opposite sex partners. I just noticed this as more and more Asian women are paired with white men on tv more. And I see almost no black men and black women couples. On tv at all. At least not any dark skinned ones unless they are stereotypes.

    This bothers me cause going on dating sites and seeing that every white guy wants an Asian woman or going to school and seeing almost all bm with nonbw and wm with either ww or aw it just bothers me. I likewl wm but everything is saying he wants anything but a girl like me. Tv- school / dating sites.

    Though I try not to watch tv I still have younger siblings and do tend to see it. And though I don’t believe on dating sites I tried a couple recently and was so disappointed. And in school the guys are so afraid of you. I’m a nice person and I’m usually cheery but feel like I’m some weirdo. And I can’t transfer my credits or else I would have left already. It’s just really depressing. I know they are out there but everytime I like a white guy who shows interest it goes nowhere.

    I don’t mean to whine but not all of us are super social and it seems like people assume you are just cause you’re black so you end up nowhere. I’m just so fed up with it. You can’t even enjoy your preferences in this country unless you look the way society views as ideal. I know romance isn’t everything and it’s good to be patient and focus on school but after a while you would like someone to hold. It’s not like other people your age isn’t. So why be the one waiting all the time.

    GoldenAh: Hey, Babs. {{hugs}} My heart goes out to you. I know it isn’t easy. It’s like being picked last off the bench when they cannot find another player for the game. :D

    I was a computer science major, so I was always surrounded by guys. No one is more helpful with computer work than Asian guys. And dang, do those guys get hitched early!

    Keep this in mind: if you notice BM and AW don’t hide who they are attracted to. They are willing to risk rejection. There may be one black girl on campus getting dates with white guys, and I bet it’s because she wasn’t afraid of letting them know: “I think y’all are hot.”

    You may be shy, but you don’t have to be a super social type to be with any guy. I don’t know if you’ve joined any clubs dominated by white guys, but that’s the best place to start. You need to make friends with them so that they see you aren’t “scary.” It’s been ages since I’ve been in college, but there was always some guy in my face.

    I don’t know how it works today – Facebook? Twitter? I’m clueless about that. You make me realize this topic will be discussed, in future, on this blog… :D

    I’m not above saying, if you can spend a summer in Europe – GO. It will make a big difference, and you do see quite clearly that there’s something really f*&!@d up going on with BW and WM in America. :D

  71. Babs
    October 13th, 2010 @ 9:23 PM

    Believe me irr websites and facebook show me that there are many wm who like bw and beleive me I see them looking. But they don’t seem to want anything more. All the interested guys seem to be in Europe. :p)

  72. Babs
    October 17th, 2010 @ 4:31 PM

    Thanks golden. I guess I assumed that being in a club with a bunch of white guys I will feel dumb. Lol. Stereotyping I know. But my school is mainly jewish so most white male clubs are based on their religion and cater to those who look like them. BUT- to be positive I should say there are some clubs like te Econ group. So yea. Oh iwill def travel. In2012 actually. Love European men. Thanks.

    GoldenAh: So you feel better? That’s great. As for the clubs: “Be dumb.” Guys love explaining things to women, it makes them feel useful, and we should let them. I find it a turn on. I’ve been in Home Depot a couple of times, and if you look lost / confused you’d be surprised how helpful they are, and these are the ones that don’t even work there. :D

    If you have folks / friends oversees already ignore my next comment. However, if you know no one in Europe, find a way to make some friends online / offline / etc…. Then you can have some folks (men of course) show you around (make sure to be safe). It’s the most awesome way to travel.

    :D

  73. Babs
    October 18th, 2010 @ 2:04 PM

    Lol fortunately I have no one in Europe. At least not yet. :p). As for acting dumb – yea I can act vulnerable just not too much to seem like an airhead. Lmao. Well not vulnerable but for like guy guy guy really guy stuff I can act curious to lol. I feel better cause there is this really attractive baby brown eyed guy who keeps staring at me in my eco class. I’m trying to figure out a way to give him a greener light. We talked so far but I think he thinks im not interested in a relationship therefore I need to give a greener light. Hmm. That’s a toughone. :p)

  74. foreverloyal
    November 12th, 2010 @ 10:57 AM

    As Theoden said… https://foreverloyal.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/how-did-it-come-to-this/

  75. rita
    November 19th, 2010 @ 2:01 PM

    “Think of all the BW who complain that they are afraid of NON-black men sexing, using, and tossing them, yet as part of the anti-NWNW push they are telling folks they do NOT mind when black men do it. Oy vey.”

    I think you just broke down the essence of it here. (‘Oy vey’ included, lol.)

    And WW dipping where it really wasn’t their place to be (to turn that cliché on its head)?
    Yeah, I think that was the reason I decided to miss that whole debate. Other things to do with my time than stay upset.

    “A highly functional dysfunctional person”

    I have a feeling I’m going to be overusing that.
    :-D

    GoldenAh: That expression is on point. It made me think of some drug addicts, Heroin users, who are supposedly highly functional, because they are very good at hiding their dysfunction.

    A twit: at one point some flippant hipster snarky white chick (you know, people who think they’re funny like Jon Stewart or Tina Fey, but they’re just racists) decided to jump on the anti-NWNW bandwagon just to navel gaze about her “white privilege.” Like somebody gives a damn. The topic had nothing to do with her, so she was disgruntled about that. Because for a person like her – it’s impossible for a topic to be about women, marriage, and relationships – and not include some funky-ass arrogant white chick.

  76. rita
    November 19th, 2010 @ 2:15 PM

    @rainebeaux -

    “I believe that is why any man/men worth a damn wants no parts of us (the ones w/oow children, that is)…”

    With respect, I think that’s just the EOTD (excuse of the day) they use.
    When men who insult you about having children OOW are not denigrating you, they’re busy looking at those of us who don’t have children as if we had two heads.

    You can’t win with some people.

    GoldenAh: I remember a job where they fully embrace “Bring Your Brat to Work Day”. I decided to take it off, because it’s very disruptive.

    Next day, I’m chatting with this guy at the office. He’s from another department. We say hello, but don’t really say much beyond light breezy topics. I’m a private person.

    He didn’t see me on “Brat Day.” I told him I was out.

    Without any hesitation or preamble he asks, “What did you do with your children?”

    Say what? I smiled, replying, “I don’t have any.”

    Response: “Oh, I’m sorry.”

    I answered, “I’m not.” :D

  77. rita
    November 19th, 2010 @ 4:15 PM

    “Part of me wishes we had good psychiatrists or psychologists to come up with some solutions, because I know I haven’t a clue.”

    A caveat here (based on my own experience only, of course).

    This is tricky too.

    IMO, especially if one plans to work with a therapist of color, one has to vet one’s therapist just about as carefully as one vets one’s mate prospects, when it comes to topics like this.

    You don’t know what lies they may have been exposed to — or what their expectations are WRT they think BW deserve — and whether those thoughts are conscious or unconscious (and that last set is a whole different thing when it comes to ferreting out, lol) — unless you ask some very, very careful questions.

    GoldenAh: You’ve made a very very good point! Dang, ’cause there are too many people out there thinking BW deserve not a damn thing. :D

    I’ve read a few articles / blogs from shrinks / psychos / Drs who are black women. Their perspective is NOT “How does this help a black woman?” it’s about continuing to circle the drain with “black community” and “How will this affect ‘da brothas’?” crap. To be frank, black women need to be selfish in a healthy, woman-focused, self-affirming, emotionally and financially rewarding kind of way. Saying, “No”, is the first step.

    Yeah, some of these “black at all costs” shrinks / psychos / Drs might not be helpful after all. It does make sense to check everybody’s thinking towards us. That’s a necessity.

    Excellent feedback, Rita! :D

  78. Whatever
    April 15th, 2011 @ 10:29 AM

    Well this blogs completely ignores the two biggest killers of the black community, abortion and rap music. You are just another faux intellectual hypocritical black person ranting about what is who’s fault. You are so convinced you are in the know, it makes me sick how stupid you are. Your solution is “JUST LOVE YOURSELF, SEPARATE YOURSELF FROM NONWHITES IN A COUNTRY THAT IS RUN BY THE RACE YOU BLAME EVERYTHING ON, AND ONLY MARRY BLACK PEOPLE”. As long as people keep separating themselves into groups there will always be racism. Please, stop polluting peoples minds with your nonsense.

    GoldenAh: Wow! Youse sure done tole me. :D

    Abortion and rap(e) music is de root of all de evil? Man, dat’s deep.

    How could I have missed dat?

    Thank da heavens for de Innernets so youse could bestow your wisdom an’ supreme knowledge on me.

    Thank you, kind Sir, or is it Madam? for blessing us wit dat brilliant commentary. ‘Cause I don’t know how I could have managed before wit out it. I is humbled by it.

    May your life always bring youse challenges, an’ leave your acuity so piercingly bright. :)

  79. Whatever
    April 16th, 2011 @ 2:22 AM

    So sad…really, is that the best you can do? No real response, just a character attack. You know why there are a bunch like you and none of them make a difference? Read your blog, and any reasonable person would know, then again you are not a reasonable person, that is why you secretly hate your self. Go ahead and insult me, if it makes you feel better. Baby, you are building a city on shifting sand, doing more damage than those who you denounce. I’m sorry God made you ugly.

    GoldenAh: Oh my Lawd, it’s da “deep thinker” again. Is dis a negro? Is dat why youse so emotionally unstable?

    Wuss your point? Didn’t you jes tol’ me everythang I’s needs to know already? Youse solved all de problems. All de problems.

    And I is so glad dat we is enriched by your fermenting hot steamy pile of gee-knee-us. I’s jes acknowledging it.

    Don’t worry. Be happy. But ease up on da extra-curriculum psychotropic stuff, okay?….. :D

  80. trish
    April 19th, 2011 @ 6:30 AM

    “Oh my Lawd, it’s da “deep thinker” again. Is dis a negro? Is dat why youse so emotionally unstable?

    Wuss your point? Didn’t you jes tol’ me everythang I’s needs to know already? Youse solved all de problems. All de problems.

    And I is so glad dat we is enriched by your fermenting hot steamy pile of gee-knee-us. I’s jes acknowledging it.

    Don’t worry. Be happy. But ease up on da extra-curriculum psychotropic stuff, okay?…..”

    LOL, that takes some skill. You’re right about the rape music. I hope you didn’t mean it as a spelling error.

    GoldenA: Hello, Trish! I was doing a bit of word play with rap and rape on purpose.

    Thanks for stopping by, your comment is appreciated. :)

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